Escape the Foggy Liar
(Published on 15. January 2025, 03:07 by PhoenixAki)
Escape the Foggy Liar
Sequel to my first puzzle Caged by a Secret Killer. Not required to solve that first, but recommended.
Rules:
- Normal sudoku rules apply: place 1-9 in each row, column, and 3x3 box.
- Killer Sudoku: Cells in dotted-line cages sum to the number in the top left corner.
- German Whispers: Adjacent digits on green lines differ by at least 5.
- Arrows: Digits on thin grey arrows sum to the digit in the attached circle.
- Kropki Dots: Cells connected by a black dot must have one digit double the other.
- XV: Cells connected by an X or V must sum to 10 or 5 respectively.
- Thermometers: Thick grey lines are thermometers, requiring digits to increase from the bulb end.
- Dynamic Fog: The grid is mostly covered in fog. Placing correct digits will progressively clear away the fog, at minimum under that cell and often in other parts of the grid as well.
- New Rule: Purple lines are liar lines. Cages touched by a liar line may or may not sum to their given total (if not, they are said to be a liar). The number of lying cages per liar line is specified by the grid's central digit (R5C5), which must be deduced. Liar lines do not branch or cross each other. If a cage is touched by a liar line, all cells of the cage will be touched by the line.
- Note: Some cells have green arrows on the edge/corners. These are purely cosmetic.
Update 1/19: I've just recorded and uploaded a solution video that has me stepping through the puzzle. It assumes the solver is already familiar with the traditional variant rules in this puzzle but still explains every step taken. Once done uploading and processing the video can be found here. I'm trusting people on an honor system to only enter the solution code if they genuinely solve it and not just copy in the digits from the video :)
Solution code: The full path of cosmetic green arrows from its start to end (18 digits)
Comments
on 29. January 2025, 02:31 by PhoenixAki
changed liar lines to be slightly thinner & lighter shade of purple to improve visibility of pencil marks
on 24. January 2025, 01:00 by DLHBin
Really enjoyable puzzle, and I enjoyed the logic with the liar lines. Nice twist with the arrows towards the end. Initially I assumed where the arrow went and entered a digit that happened to be correct, but my logic was not, as the arrows were different to what I had expected. Deleted the digit, until I managed to use proper logic to enter the same digit.
PhoenixAki: Haha! Fun behind-the-scenes fact, the original version of the ending had that area of the grid how you likely imagined it, and it was a very last-minute realization that I could alter them to how they are now to try to trip people up at the last second, so I'm glad it's been appreciated
on 23. January 2025, 00:42 by TheNineElements
I do not want to muddy the waters any further regarding the clarity of the rules, but I think my initial confusion came from what it means to be a 'lying' killer cage.
Here is the current sentence from the rules that tripped me up originally: "Cages touched by a liar line may or may not sum to their given total (meaning they are liars)."
When I first read through the rules, I thought that the addendum to include the 'may or may not' language was saying that a lying/liar killer cage may or may not sum to its top left value. Of course this interpretation doesn't really make sense, as it kind of nullifies what it means to be a 'lying' clue. Like it wouldn't make sense to count 'lying' killers if some of the lying killers weren't actually lying.
I think my phrasing of the rule (based on my current understanding) would be something like:
"
Liar Lines: The grid contains several non-branching, non-crossing purple lines, each passing through at least one killer cage. If a killer cage is touched by a liar line, all of its cells must lie on that line. Each liar line contains at least one cage, though the total number of cages per line may vary.
For any given liar line, exactly 'N' distinct cages on that line are lying cages, where N is the digit placed in R5C5 and must be deduced by the solver. A lying cage does not sum to the number given in its top-left corner. If the total number of cages on a liar line exceeds N, the remaining cages must be truthful and sum correctly. All liar lines share the same value of N, and therefore must contain at least N cages.
"
This is at least my interpretation/understanding of the rules. Throwing this out there if it helps clarify things for anyone else, and please let me know if this is an incorrect understanding/phrasing of the 'liar lines' rule.
PhoenixAki: I've shied away from wording it along these lines because, at least personally, I find rules that involve using N in this type of way to be wildly confusing and hard to interpret compared to how it's worded currently. It's a tough balance between not wanting to overdo it with wording (which is also advice I also got earlier in the comments) but also having it be expressive enough to explain it properly. If I'm being honest, I really don't fully see why people are struggling with understanding it as much as they are, but I am obviously going to be biased since I'm the one who created it and know how it works.
on 22. January 2025, 23:53 by TheNineElements
Solve Time: 13:57
I rated this 2/5 difficulty.
Fun approachable dfow puzzle. I really liked the idea for the break-in. Even though the R5C5 rule may be seen as a bit 'clunky' for the minimalists out there, I thought the idea was clever & interesting and led to some nice logic.
The 'liar' lines were a bit confusing at first but after I began progressing through the solve I got the hang of it and was able to deduce which cages must be valid killers. The 'may or may not' logic being discussed earlier was a bit confusing, and led to some overthinking on my end. After I understood it the rest of the puzzle was nice and had some cool logic (especially the arrows, IMO).
Thanks for sharing!
PhoenixAki: Glad you enjoyed it! For some behind the scenes, when I was initially drafting ideas for how the liar line rule would work, I was envisioning something not as global as the R5C5 thing (like having each liar line's amount of liars be determined based on a number on that line, or similar) but due to being a fairly novice setter I wasn't able to see that approach through and found it easier to do this way
on 19. January 2025, 07:54 by PhoenixAki
Discovered an unintended hidden single that allowed for skipping an important intended deduction. Puzzle link has updated with a minor construction edit that avoids this (solution code and grid solution is unchanged).
Also added link to newly uploaded solution video that people can use to help them while solving, on an honor system to only put in the solution code if you aren't copy-pasting the digits in directly :)
on 16. January 2025, 22:33 by Felis_Timon
I like the solution code and I hope you don't change it.
It's not just one or two rows or columns, like most of them are. I sense some creativity in this code, thought put into this.
I don't care about the length and I feel like people complaining about 18 digits are just too lazy. I would like to forbid people to complain about 18 digit codes but unfortunately I'm not authorized to
on 16. January 2025, 12:37 by xocolatl
Yeah, the solution code is ridiculous. :-(
PhoenixAki: 18 digits is hardly uncommon on LMD and the code here was the only digits in the grid I could with 100% certainty say "the person has found all intended deductions". I may change it if I need to edit the page for any other reason already.
on 15. January 2025, 22:51 by dingledork
I liked this. I suspect the “low” rating is because of the unduly onerous solution code.
on 15. January 2025, 21:32 by austineck18
Absolutely loved the puzzle. Thank you!
on 15. January 2025, 20:50 by PhoenixAki
another rule wording adjustment to remove minor ambiguity in phrasing. If you are new to this puzzle, please do not pre-judge the puzzle by how many rule issues the people below have run into...I'm almost tempted to republish the puzzle to avoid the rating being tainted for the future but I'm undecided
on 15. January 2025, 20:14 by gdc
I agree with other comments on rules. To me "digits may not sum to the given total" clearly means that the cage must be lying which is not the intended rule.
PhoenixAki: updated rules again to remove this ambiguity.
on 15. January 2025, 19:51 by Nylimb
Very nice puzzle. But I found the liar line wording confusing, because of the ambiguity of the phrase "may not" in English. Often that means the same as "must not", but in this case it means "may or may not".
PhoenixAki: Updated rules again to remove this ambiguity.
Nylimb: Thanks for the update. It's much clearer now.
on 15. January 2025, 18:41 by PhoenixAki
Updated wording of liar line rule based on feedback. I hate semantics lol
on 15. January 2025, 15:19 by VitP
This is a good puzzle, and has an "unfairly" low rating. I suspect it has to do with confusion in the liar line rules, which makes the puzzle harder than its listed difficulty.
Unless the puzzle is a "cryptic", where the rules themselves are intended to be obscure, and this needs to be clearly stated, the rules should be written in PLAIN LANGUAGE, always clear, and generally succinct.
Therefore I recommend:
The purple liar lines do not branch or cross. Some cages are touched by liar lines, in which case the line passes through ALL cells of the cage. Cages touched by liar lines MAY have the wrong sum. There are N "liar" cages on each liar line, where N is the digit in r5c5.
PhoenixAki: This version of the rules passed the testing phase with ~15 people solving it in the Cracking the Cryptic discord server, so it's been very surprising to me that people here are suddenly struggling with it and unfairly rating the puzzle lower as a result (I agree in suspecting that's the case). I do like your inclusion of mentioning the lines don't branch or cross, though, and I may borrow that + other aspects of your version to update my wording.
on 15. January 2025, 15:13 by PhoenixAki
missed the liar line rule here, oops!
on 15. January 2025, 06:25 by Mozart40
@Decapod Please check the description in Sodokupad. There is an additional rule.
PhoenixAki: Thanks for clarifying for them :) The liar rule is now listed here as well.
on 15. January 2025, 05:50 by Decapod
Your rules as listed here don't explain the purple line, nor how there can be two 3 cages in row 1.
PhoenixAki: Sorry about that! Missed the liar line rule when setting up the puzzle page here. The rule was listed in sudokupad though. It's now been updated here. I hope you'll try it again and enjoy it.
on 15. January 2025, 03:32 by hardline35
very nice puzzle, thank you! Looking forward to the sequel.
